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Maybe it’s because I work in advertising … maybe it’s because I had top bosses … maybe it’s because I’m ‘scary’ looking … but despite dressing and acting like a 14 year old, I’ve been lucky enough to always been hired for my supposed talent, not the way I look [thank god] – however it would seem discrimination is alive and well and living in London.
While I appreciate first impressions count a lot … isn’t that the point of being interviewed, to find out what is going on behind the image?
Not only that, but as I doubt Lauren has applied for jobs in the Banking, Legal or Medical industries … shouldn’t the sort of organisations that seel/need/want/crave her talent expect a more individualistic look?
Is this fair? Is this right? Is this even legal?
Eitherway, she is a toptastic woman who is fucking talented and has had a very bad day so you should head over there and drop off a ‘comment-of-support’ … because there are times in life where we all feel alone and need to be told we’re not.
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if we kick their fucking narrow minded heads in till their eyes swell up, then they wont know what the fuck you look like and just let you get on with what you do best. mind you, if ive fucked their vision, they wouldnt be able to see what that is would they? fuck, let me think about this a little more.
Comment by andy@cynic July 19, 2007 @ 9:08 amI am guessing you don’t want to go into advertising Lauren but if you did, you’d be in an industry that tends to judge negatively those who are more conservative in appearaance. Whoever it was who has messed you about, it’s their loss.
Comment by Pete July 19, 2007 @ 9:44 amThe thing that pisses me off and it really does. It pisses me off that this was was the third interview. Changing the goalposts is even lower than making judgments based on external style judgments. I call it cowardice. No other word for it. Working for cowards hurts most when courage is most needed. Lauren is best off without them. Thats not me being nice. Thats me telling it like it is.
Comment by charlesfrith July 19, 2007 @ 10:54 amTHIRD INTERVIEW?
Unless the previous 2 were conducted on the phone or a totally pitch black room surely they had already seen who Lauren was as a person?
And I go back to what I wrote in the post – surely an interview is about understanding the person behind the look … so if they kept calling her back then surely they recognised a talent they wanted to explore more.
Sure, if at the end of the day they felt she wasn’t right creatively or culturally, I’d understand … but I get the impression their decision to not hire her was based on how she looks rather than what she does/how she does it – and if that is the case, they’re a bunch of fuckwits who ultimately are the biggest losers.
Of course we can’t prove this is the reason she didn’t get the job – but if we could, I wonder how an employment lawyer would regard it as a case?
Comment by Rob July 19, 2007 @ 11:21 amThird interview Ye Gods.
Comment by NP July 19, 2007 @ 2:42 pmBy the way, advertising can be just as conservative as any other industry – if you don’t wear the right clothes, if you’re not cool, if you don’t talk talk in unintelligably long sentences, some places will discount you before you can say pretentious fool. And for an ‘ideas’ business, it’s funny how many places insist on you doing things their way.
But this is about Lauren, not us. Sod them. Really.
Well, i’m pretty sure that the basis behind racial discrimination cases is that appearance not ability was used to choose the candidate.
The fact she got to the third interview shows she had the ability.
Did they actually say that your appearance was a factor?
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 2:44 pmUnless they explicitly stated that Lauren didn’t get the job because of her appearance that there is very little, legally Lauren can do about it. I seem to remember discussing this with Lauren when I was over in London, and that she’d been to a company that had said “well, take out the piercings and get rid of the red hair and we can talk about the job” (have I remembered that correctly Lauren?). If that is was the same company, and the second interview, and they actually said that, then they are in trouble.
Lauren darling, be a sweetie and do tell us who it was. This reminds me a little of a story I heard about a very posh café in Frankfurt and it goes like this:
A mother and her tiny new born baby take a seat in a very posh café in Frankfurt. The baby cries (it’s hungry) and the mother started breast feeding her child. The manager asked the mother to leave, stating that “we do not want that kind of behaviour in our restaurant”.
That evening she told a group of young mothers the story.
The next day 60 mothers went to the café to breast fed their kids and the manager spent most of the day with reporters explaining why he had expelled the woman from his café.
Now, I have a vision of hundreds of tattooed, pierced red-haired PEOPLE turning up the their office – forming an orderly queue and asking for information about services etc.
At the end of the queue is Lauren. She’s the last one in – what she would ask, or say is completely up to her.
Comment by Marcus July 19, 2007 @ 2:49 pmSadly I dont think most people see it as discrimination, but thats what it is.
If you suddenly said people with black hair couldn’t work for you, then your business would be accused of discriminating against black and asian people. It’s about time someone did something about the way many businesses look at you if you are slightly different.
Her appearance has no bearing on her ability to do the job. They may say that “our customers would react badly”, but that wouldn’t be a legal excuse for not hiring someone because they were black, or because they were female.
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 3:02 pmThe recruitment process (across all industries) in the UK has been appalling for decades. It’s partly/largely down to the reliance on recruitment agencies whereby you farm out the acquisition of your most important assets to people who couldn’t get the job in the first place, don’t really understand your business and make their money on churning applicants.
They use phrases like “the client had decided to change the brief” (I was with Lauren a few weeks back when she got rejected for a temp position with that excuse – again after a series of interviews) and, of course, “you’re overqualified” as their standard get out of jail free excuses.
Wake up people! Do it yourself! It’s too important and now, of course, through this medium, we get to know people and their talents much more intimately, can cross reference them simply and the only fee we pay is some occasional abusive blog comments which frankly some of us deserve.
Comment by John Dodds July 19, 2007 @ 3:41 pmFuck, I’ve got a FIFTH interview this afternoon. I had planned on going with fake breasts on underneath my jumper but I know now that there’s NO WAY I’m putting that jumper on.
Lauren – chin up – and move on. I think the general sentiment here is FUCK THEM, and really, fuck them. It IS their loss. But unfortunately it’s more YOUR loss really – and that’s what makes it such a bummer. Or I’m sure it must feel a little like that – but of course, not in the longer term. Your frame of mind is what makes the difference. Fuck them and move on.
Comment by TomLR July 19, 2007 @ 4:41 pmCome to cynic Lauren, they don’t discriminate and I need a freaky friend to bitch with. I got my job despite turning up hungover, wearing week old clothes and stinking of fuck knows what. And don’t forget this is a company who kept a client after a certain senior member puked all over their desk. They go for brains over looks (but I have both) so fuck those backward looking dicks in slimey limeyland and come to the good old US of A.
Comment by Billy Whizz July 19, 2007 @ 4:53 pmTom should come to us too, we like blokes with falsies on, as demonstrated beautifully here by my fucking boss
Comment by Billy Whizz July 19, 2007 @ 4:55 pmhttp://robcampbell.wordpress.com/2007/06/12/when-it-all-began/
Mad place… im amazed you produce any work at all sometimes, let alone good stuff!!
Dont give up Lauren. Just because there are idiots out there, don’t let it hide the fact that there are decent people hidden away… one of whom is bound to employ you one day.
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 5:03 pmBecause Mr M … the madness is directed towards something, not just mental free-for-all. Well, it is when I’m there … haha!
Comment by Rob July 19, 2007 @ 5:33 pmTouche!
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 5:44 pmWe need some of that cynic madness in the UK…
Watch this space. Hopefully. Ha!
Comment by Rob July 19, 2007 @ 5:50 pmI shall!
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 5:55 pmIt will be in my list of cynic influenced events that the world needs… behind H2, the ‘env’ project, and findging some Nasa Top Trumps 😉
*finding
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 5:56 pmLate to the party on this one, but Lauren knows what I think about it.
I’m in complete agreement with the erstwhile Mr Dodds on this one. I feel a post brewing on that topic. But later, later.
Comment by Will July 19, 2007 @ 6:20 pmI’ve never sent you those fucking NASA Top Trumps did I? What a cock … will chase it up now.
I am shit to you Mr M … why the fuck do you hang around and be so nice to me?
Comment by Rob July 19, 2007 @ 6:30 pmIn the hope that one day you’ll open a UK office and have a nice well paid planning role for me.
(I kid, I kid… well, sort of. It would be nice… but I hang around as you are a decent intelligent guy who is a part of great ads made in a way I admire. And your compadres are also great people.)
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 6:36 pmSee … marketing and advertising can work … look how I’ve conned Mr M.
[I’ve said that before Andy could, ha!]
Info about ‘stuff’ hopefully not too far away, but it’s still going to be weeks rather than days, despite our best efforts, ha!
Comment by Robert July 19, 2007 @ 6:49 pmI trust the recruitment of HHCL, the judgement of Marcus, NP, Lauren, Pete etc. Besides, as much as Andy insults you, if you werent at least reasonably intelligent he wouldnt waste his valuable time on it!
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 6:57 pmHahahaha, unfortunately he would but thanks for the support!
Comment by Rob July 19, 2007 @ 6:59 pmhi everyone.
thanks so much for your support – rob, you’re embarrassing with the love!! 🙂
charles is right – it was the third interview, which is why i’m so fucking furious about the whole thing. i can understand (if i stretch my imagination) needing staff to have a certain level of appearance, especially because most of the clients are lawyers and bankers, who apparrently have no ability to deal with it. which is why i would have been OK if it had been mentioned in both first and second interviews, and i have let them know this. it is the ‘moving of the goalposts’ that has fucked me off royally.
the added bonus here being that, as you know (marcus, you’re right), that this isn’t the first time that my appearance has been an issue despite them loving my work. lucky for you guys, it’s not been in the advertising biz, but in architecture and printing industries. and rob m, yes they did say that my appearance was a factor – i gave up looking for demons where there aren’t any years ago.
i could go litigation crazy, but i’m not going to. while i adhere to the law, i actually abide by ‘what goes around comes around’. and it will.
as i said in my blog, i’m using the cynic/PIL ethos of ‘anger is an energy’ and am going to just aim high, kick arse and make a difference in other ways. the best revenge being a good life.
tom, you’re right, it is my loss, especially because this job would have meant the travel to europe i had planned, but that doesn’t mean that something else won’t come of it. [and if i hadn’t just had this experience, i would say ‘please wear the boobs!’. and if you don’t wear the boobs to the interview, please wear them when you’re next in london!]
thanks again everyone for your support – you’re all so fucking lovely and it makes a big difference. (and that’s not the loopy pollyanna from yesterday talking either)
Comment by lauren July 19, 2007 @ 7:08 pmHaving very extreme tastes in music, I find it amazing that people who dress differently are still treated as if they are lunatics.
When I used to go to our local rock club, my mates and I would sometimes go quite extreme just to see the way people reacted… (the reaction of a bus driver as I led my friend Laura down the road with her leash was particularly brilliant).
Yet people ive met in the rock and punk communities are some of the most passionate hard working people ive ever come across. Yet all too often companies just don’t understand that being part of a culture doesnt make you a bad employee…
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 7:19 pmIt’s a sad World when talented and lovely people like Lauren can’t get a job whereas fat and ugly slobs like Andy can.
[Unsuprisingly Andy is away at the moment and Lauren will get a job very soon … ]
Comment by Rob July 19, 2007 @ 7:22 pmif andy was here he’d probably say something like “i’ve got a job because i’m a fucking brilliantly creative genius who would kick your arse at anytime of the day and you’d still love it. cock”. but he’s away, so i guess we’re spared. 🙂
Comment by lauren July 19, 2007 @ 7:27 pmI am a god. Not just any old god, but THE god. You will bow down in worship of my skills or your arse shalt be smote with the sores of magnificence.
Comment by Andy July 19, 2007 @ 7:46 pmA reasonable impression I feel…
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 7:47 pmDunno Rob M – not sure if andy’s ever used the word ‘smote’. 😉
I think he prefers more direct, naughtier words.
Translated into non swearing, it would be:
‘Flip’ you all, you bunch of fellating ‘motherlickers’. I am the ‘bar steward’ best.
Comment by Will July 19, 2007 @ 8:05 pmHaha so true.
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 8:18 pmAndy, get a fucking grip.
Comment by Marcus July 19, 2007 @ 8:26 pmIs that Marcusarcasm or did you miss the obvious clue? 🙂
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 9:10 pmMarcusarcasm
Comment by Marcus July 19, 2007 @ 9:25 pmok! 🙂
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 9:34 pmI know for a fact that’s not really Andy – and not because he’s tucked away working hard on something cool – but because [1] he never uses capitals [too lazy to hold the ‘shift button’ down] [2] he’d NEVER use SHALT, let alone SMOTE and [3] he couldn’t say ‘bow down’ with some sexual innuendo.
Lauren’s example on the other hand … 🙂
Comment by Robert July 19, 2007 @ 10:51 pmHowever having seen these ‘homage’s’ to Andy, I do realise he’s a horrid and unpleasant man. God I love him, ha!
Comment by Robert July 19, 2007 @ 10:53 pmHorrid?
Strange word to use!
Thanks for the POTM post 🙂
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 19, 2007 @ 11:07 pmErstwhile!! I am not fucking erstwhile. I am extant. You may have been able to sneak such slapdashery past your stoned lecturers Will, but in the real world we expect literacy.
Comment by John Dodds July 20, 2007 @ 7:07 amGuilty as charged Mr D. Unless you’d had an accident. Bear in mind at University I wrote about pretty much nothing else than Milton or Renaissance Literature, so you get locked into an old school way of writing.
Ah, University and the art of getting away with it..
Comment by Will July 20, 2007 @ 3:04 pmI spent most of my time getting rat arsed, having sex, eating toast (if you know what I mean) and occasionaly painting the odd picture.
Ah, Art – the college of getting away with it.
Comment by Marcus July 20, 2007 @ 3:21 pmOoooooh look at the fancy-pants educated duo! Ha!
Comment by Rob July 20, 2007 @ 3:42 pmHa ha.
Comment by Marcus July 20, 2007 @ 3:54 pmYou dont mean… “toast” ?
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 20, 2007 @ 4:27 pmthere are moments in a student’s like, when munching on toast is required.
Comment by Marcus July 20, 2007 @ 4:36 pmHah. Yes, I was a student also…
Comment by Rob Mortimer July 20, 2007 @ 4:54 pmGreat comment John Dodds. I will be posting about this at an appropriate time.
Comment by charlesfrith July 20, 2007 @ 7:13 pm